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108 vs 110 lobe separation

by bigjoe1 Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:48 pm, Post Exhaust reversion is another undesirable side effect that can be caused by overlap. You must log in or register to reply here. 110 for sure. I have seen a dyno test where an engine using identical duration and lift made more peak power with a 112 LSA than a 110 LSA. Bolander says those cams help promote torque in a controlled and predictable manner, especially in no-wake zones and around the docks. What Is the SBC Header Bolt Torque? No, it is not even close to the ultimate performance grind most would have picked. Widening their separation angle helps increase upper rpm power output. 110 LSA: The 110 LSA shows up mechanically advantageous in mechanical aspects like higher RPM, lower engine knock, moderate cylinder pressure, improved idle vacuum, and higher piston-to-valve clearance. Its also critical that valve overlap is kept to a minimum as the induction system can create a suction that pulls water into the motor, adds Bolander. 106 LSA: The scale of efficient compression rises at 106 LSA. Ed JTO learn to park Joined May 31, 2009 180 Posts Epilepsy is a chronic noncommunicable brain (neurological) disorder associated with excessive neuronal activity and unprovoked seizures referred to as 'epileptic seizures' and sensory-motor deficits that cause neurobiological, cognitive, psychological, and social consequences to the patient. 06 The ported heads featured a 2.165/1.590-inch valve combo. Because the lobes are closer together on the 101 LSA cam, the intake closing point is advanced (closes earlier) and the piston has more time to build compressionexactly what the gauge showed. In my opinion, the rougher the idle the better! I'd also go to a 110-112 lobe separation angle. 12 In terms of power production, the stroker LS3 performed best with the tightest lobe separation angle. Elle concerne 264 taxons des degrs divers. Has anybody experienced it/ tried it? Noah knows a lot about whats happening in the car industry with the latest piloting productions thanks to his professional experience. A 232 deg duration cam with a 108 deg LCA will have the same valve overlap as a 236 deg cam with a 110 deg LCA and idle will probably be very similar. Idle vacuum showed a considerable spike to 14.7 in-Hg, likely the difference between being able to run power brakes and a mandatory leg workout. *If you do not have enough vacuum, you can in some cases install a vacuum canister or reservoir, which works by storing the peak vacuum in the reservoir. Enter lobe separation angle. Powerband serves a massive contribution to the acceleration car. All three terms are similar, as they all relate to the relationship between the centerline of the Intake lobe and the centerline of the Exhaust lobe. Well, it is quite a natural event that you may not find the lope separation angle mentioned at the engine body. 110 degrees on the lobe separation angles. But it also has a lot of lobe separation. There are General guidelines about the effects of LSA but it should not be the deciding factor in choosing a cam. The absence of engine knocking ensures that your car engine is reasonably combusting the fuel. You can modify the lobe center a little bit but not enough to change the actual overlap of the grind. A 110-degree lobe separation angle means that the peak opening points of the intake and exhaust lobes are 110 degrees apart. The reduced rate of the EGR effect lowers oxygen circulation in the engines combustion chamber. With the first cam loaded in the engine (the 101 LSA) Westech's Steve Brul made three dyno pulls, the average of which was saved to compare to the next cam. 4-Link72, do you run racing gas or pump with 10.5:1 CR? 106 LSA: As you know, the intake and exhaust lobes centerline distance is known as lobe separation angle. The ported heads were capable of supporting over 700 hp, so we knew they would not be restrictive on our stroker. Okay, have a sigh because you have opened the right door. Generally speaking, decreasing the lobe centerline angle increases overlap. The lobe separation angle is the angle in camshaft degrees between the maximum lift points, or centerlines, of the intake and exhaust lobes. The takeaway is simple on the surface: A tighter LSA makes more low-end and peak torque at the expense of just a few top-end ponies. Chevy Transmission Wont Shift Into 3rd: Finding the Main Culprit, Yamaha Lower Unit Drain Plug Size [Explained Everything], Does It Matter Which Ignition Coil Goes Where? by 3V Performance Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:38 pm, Post The lobe separation angle is the angle in camshaft degrees between the maximum lift points, or centerlines, of the intake and exhaust lobes, says Eric Bolander of Erson Cams. The 234o duration kind of eliminates the RV usage. ditto with the above. It will sound lovely I'm sure. Pick the cam with the valve timing events that fit the engine best, forget about LSA, it is only a result of the events. Howards Cams Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Camshaft and Lifter Kits CL120325-08. . As you can see in the graph, the 101 LSA cam actually had the highest cranking compression of the batch: 185 psi. Part Number: HRS-CL120325-08. 106 LSA: The overlapping is higher as 106 LSA is comparatively tighter LSA than 110 LSA. 106 LSA: On the contrary, if we look at the 106 LSA, we will find it more advantageous and energy efficient than the 110 LSA engine. But, you may wonder knowing that a higher valve clearance rate reduces the chance of damaging the valve by the piston. Brul slid the 113-LSA cam, the widest of the test, into the engine's heart and set about putting all the pieces back in place. such as 290 @.050? Cam timing plays an important role not only in the power generated but also the overall character of the powerplant. Everyone has a different idea of gentle.While its true that the duntov cam may seem rough in a 283 it is still a factory offering and they never go to radical on there profiles for street cars.If you want a rough idle, try a 283 with a .550'lift roller and 13.5 to 1 compression,THATS ROUGH. JavaScript is disabled. However, these rules are not absolute. (ICL + ECL) / 2 = LOBE SEPARATION ANGLE (LSA) LSA is a RESULT of the PROPER events. 1-4 It is one of the most common neurological disorders worldwide, 1-5 is among the most common . That lopey idle that is universally loved, and part of the allure of a tight LSA cam, is actually misfire caused from a combination of exhaust dilution in the intake manifold and poor cylinder filling at idle. http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220, http://www.popularhotrodding.com/en6em_camshaft_specs/lobe_seperation_angle.html. Alternatively, if you are running a bigger camshaft to gain maximum top-end power, cam makers often suggest reducing the lobe separation angle to recover power lost in the lower rev range.. Mike Magda is a veteran automotive writer with credits in publications such as Racecar Engineering, Hot Rod, Engine Technology International, Motor Trend, Automobile, Automotive Testing Technology and Professional Motorsport World. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Copyright 2022, S&S Motorsports LLC, All Rights Reserved - Powered by, http://www.webcamshafts.com/cam_glossary.html, http://www.newcovenant.com/speedcrafter haft/3.htm, Webcam 86A 108LC w/1.5 vs 86B 112LC w/1.3s. A cam with a tighter LSA will require a looser torque converter, may not be able to run vacuum-assisted brakes, and doesn't play nice with fuel injection. 108: 110: 112: 114 . The engine would idle a lot rougher and generate worse exhaust emissions largely because of unburned fuel.. A mobile functional near-infrared spectroscopy (fNIRS) was used to record cerebral oxygenation signals in the left prefrontal cortex (LPFC), right prefrontal cortex (RPFC), left parietal lobe (LPL), and right parietal lobe (RPL) and analyze the EC of the cerebral cortex. Thats just the way the customer wants to roll, and engine builders find its easy to deliver such a powerplant. If you're an OEM automaker looking for a steady idle, good fuel economy, and passing tailpipe emissions, this is the cam of choice. If you take any of the . Retarding the camshaft (a higher intake lobe centerline number 108 vs. 104) will generally start the power band later in the RPM range and decrease the cylinder pressure. I would have to say that your cam choice sounds like a winner to me. The exhaust has an opening even and a closing event. However, in application, there is a lot more to consider. also,, wider will produce a wider and more flat torque curve that doesn't fall off as abruptly up top rpms. by SStrokerAce Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:36 pm, Post Armed with more information on camshaft theory, what will you build? Hopefully It will do fine in my 2276 mostly drag bug. Thanks for the replies so far. Pretty much standard for an RV type cam. If a street car has smaller lift and duration numbers, they might run 112 or 114. After spending 8 years in plant production engineering, Noah wanted to join Engine Addiction as a key member of all cars specific guides, reviews, repairs, suggestions, and more. If that accessory still does not assist the cam in producing enough vacuum, then as a last resort you can use a vacuum pump. This overlapping has a direct influence on the oil consumption rate of the engine. A lower efficient compression rate leads to a higher fuel consumption rate by your engine to produce higher power. The 402-inch LS2/LS3 hybrid stroker started out with an LS2 aluminum block. As the RPM's go up this is not as critical as the higher velocity of the air/fuel moving thru keeps it from getting contaminated. While a cam with a 108 lobe center will idle rougher. The graph above compares intake valve closing points of the three cams used in the test. A 112 LSA would be better if I had an automatic, but the engine builder (who has built many, many drag racing engines)told me I would have much faster acceleration with the 108, at the expense of a broader power band of course, but that 108 would not unduly penalize me for the street. I normally run a 106 to a 108 because I like the "hit" a tighter LC cam has when it come up on the came. 110 LSA: On the other hand, 110 LSA is comparatively a wider LSA; it can generate a massive amount of RPM for the engine. That means your engine can produce more power with a minimum amount of fuel combustion. 110 will be a bit punchier in the midrange and probalby make a little more peak horsepower as long as a good exhaust is used. 554"/577" lift. This recommendation is only if you shift at no more than 7000. But, you may find a lobe wider than a 120-degree angle in any car engine.But, I must let you know that those are customized car engines prepared for any special purpose, such as racing, drag racing, off-road riding, or performing stunts. 112 will have a smoother idle, a wider power band, and will work better with fuel injection. If it occurs too late, it will lean out the cylinder and greatly hinder the performance of the engine. It is the average centerline between both lobes and expressed in degrees ranging from 95 on the extremely narrow/tight side to upward of 120 on the wide end. Kevko baffled oil pan & Milidon windage tray. I would say 114-117* would be a normal 1960's stock cam range and 117* to 120* is more what we see on modern engines. 07 Though the CNC-ported heads offered plenty of flow, it was necessary to upgrade the supplied valvesprings. 09 All testing was run through a set of 1 3/4-inch long-tube headers and 3-inch exhaust. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. The other thing is that you can make more power with a smaller aftermarket cam. I don't think your duration figures are too outlandish and with the tight LCA and high lift, it should make some big torque. The 110o will make more power overall. Aug 20, 2006. Here are the basics: higher lift values open the valves to increase airflow and longer duration keeps the valves open longer. . After swimming through the entire article, I hope you are now well aware of the 102 vs 110 lobe separation angle. Thanks for the replies, particularly that link Marc, very informative. I know a little about cams. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. It is possible to advance and retard the timing events, but the distance between the centerline of the lobes will remain constant. or just enough to keep the neighbors pissed? I think you are asking a lot of a cam . 106 LSA: You can see an increasing EGR effect at 106 LSA. I have used some cut on a 110 that worked well too, but they never sounded as good as the tight ones. This causes the engine's street manners and tuning to become fickle. The 112-degree cam produced peak numbers of 567 hp at 6,200 rpm and 540 lb-ft of torque while pumping out 511 lb-ft of torque at 4,000 rpm. by jim martin Mon May 12, 2003 7:10 pm, Post I don't know about 13 to one but I have seen 12 to one on a 350 chev in hot rod article, BUT the guy soft petals around on the street with no full throttle use and puts racing gas in at the track. 106 LSA: There is an increasing chance of engine knock at the 106 lobe separation angle. To demonstrate changes to lobe separation in action, we ordered three camshafts from Comp Cams, all ground with identical lift (0.541 intake and 0.537 exhaust) and duration (230 intake and 236 exhaust) but with three different LSAs: a 101, a 107, and a 113. Do you like to go fast? Camshaft: Hydraulic Roller, Comp Cam custom grind (ADV Duration 281-287,@ .050 230-236, lift 622I & 625E w/1.6 rockers.) Lobe separations gives lots of overlap and lobe centers just happens when the grinder decides how the peak of the lobe will arrive on a specific grind by their tooling. Check out the Comp Cams catalog, even the biggest hydraulic rollers use 110. It creates an unsteady manifold vacuum condition that, on a fuel-injected engine, confuses manifold air pressure (MAP) sensors, making it hard for them to regulate fueling. The 108-degree cam offered both the most power and torque, but idle quality suffered compared to the wider LSAs. I've seen a few comments in threads on here that have said things like "going to the 112LC from the 108LC gives 4lbft more torque at the bottom and 2bhp more at the top" yet this would seem to go against what webcam say on. I will be running an Edelbrock Performer RPM, with a Quick Fuel 750cfm with a screw adjustable vacuum secondary; it's called the Pro-vac. In this segment, I am going to compare those two lobe separation angles based on a couple of mechanical factors. If you look at any given cam catalog, you will find that the majority of street-oriented cams fall in this range. BUT, 114 will have more vacuum at idle, which will work better with some fuelinjection. Cam swaps are all the rage and for good reason. music to your ears? VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. Yearh, I have been reading a lot about this issue. 114LSA +4 puts the intake centerline at 110 degrees before top dead center. Frontal lobe epilepsy (FLE), the second most common focal epilepsy syndrome after temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE), is frequently drug-resistant and MRI-negative. pump gas, no additive's as well, runs good, i will put the highest octane in, which is 93.. When degreeing in the camshaft, you are making sure the intake centerline is precisely where the cam is intended to be. It affects the powerband and temperament of a motor more than any other single part, and a slight change can turn a car from a mild-tempered grocery-getter to a downright nasty machine. When choosing a cam, power gains shouldn't be the only consideration. The idle quality was better with the 112-degree LSA but not as good as the wider 120-degree cam.The ultra-wide 120-degree LSA lost low-speed power and never recovered, but know that this wide LSA is often beneficial on positive displacement, supercharged applications. so it is a solid flat tappet, torker intake, 1" 4-hole tapered spacer and 750 carb (QFT) transmission is a wide ratio toploader, rear is a 9" 3.89 geared 26"rear tires. "Ninety-nine percent of cranking compression is dictated by static compression ratio and intake-valve closing point," said Comp Cams' Billy Godbold. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Big strokers like tighter LCA but it really depends on your combo and usage, theres great OTS cams but for a custom engine a custom cam is the way to go With identical cam lobes you won't see a bit of difference. Idle quality was rough and the vacuum gauge showed only 9.8 in-Hg (inches of mercury). somthing to that aspect. However it is at the expense of a small amount of bottom end power and idle quality, due to the increased overlap. True enough, the tight LSA improved power through the entire rev range, from 3,600 to 6,500 rpm, but the extra power came with a penalty in idle quality. Professionally ported & polished iron 4V head with titanium intake valves, stainless exhaust, titanium retainers & keepers & dual springs. Not a HUGE, but a significant difference between 110 and 112, but those are the trends. Some of the programs like engine analyzer pro and dynomation seem to like some of the wider lsa's.Thanks again JOE. As a result of this fall, the idle of the engine has to face suffering quite often. The lower the lobe seperation,, ie. by mrsmythe Mon May 12, 2003 11:15 am, Post But, at 106 LSA, the cranking compression may increase above the standard PSI level. Methods: We evaluated 30 individuals with PD (62.47.2 years) and 22 age-matched healthy controls (61.06.4 years). A forum community dedicated to vintage Ford Mustang owners and enthusiasts. A cam with 110 lobe center will pull approximately 14-18"of vacuum is borderline for that type of application. Re: Lobe separations on 383-406 cids.104-106-108-110. If you want a lumper idle go with a cam with 108 LSA, the tigher the LSA the idle will be rougher. Comparison Table Between 106 Vs 110 Lobe Separation Angle. Things like idle vacuum, fuel economy, and tuning all factor into picking the right cam. Maybe even 114. Before we all start suffering from separation anxiety, we need to understand what lobe separation angle actually is and then how it affects your engine. Pontiac 326 Vs Chevy 327 Differences & Similarities. It will also give you a smoother idle and probably even better gas mileage. Save Share. A cam's lobe separation determines where and for how long peak torque occurs in an engine's rpm range. It idles very well at 650 rpm with a nice lope and runs strong. Well, there can be different reasons for this problem. Changing the lobe separation angle changes the amount of overlap that exists during the time the intake and exhaust valves are both open, echoes Doug Patton of Pro Line Race Engines. This is one of the many reasons why Clay Smith Cams always recommends degreeing your camshaft in using the Lobe Center Method. The final cam was tighter still, with a 108-degree LSA. The other thing is that you need to tune your ignition advance to maximize your performance. The 108-degree cam (blue lines) outperformed the other two, but idle quality suffered. (LOBE SEPARATION ANGLE)cam CRANES 110921 has the intake close at 45 degrees ABDC while the wider lsa CRANES 114681 closes the valves at 50.0 ABDC . But nothing comes without a cost, and idle vacuum suffers as LSA shrinks. Also present during testing was a set of 1 7/8-inch Kooks headers, Comp hydraulic roller lifters, and F-body oil pan. Leave the 108 for solid rollers turning big rpms. Cam and Lifters, Hydraulic Roller Tappet, Advertised Duration 282/288, Lift .589/.600, Chevy, Big Block, Kit. 106 LSA: 106LSA results in a decrease in piston-to-valve clearance. 4-linked72, what cam are you using that has a 108 LSA? According to the Comp Cams catalog, "The lobe separation angle (LSA) is equal to 1/2 the angle in crankshaft degrees of rotation between the maximum exhaust valve lift and maximum intake lift.". Nitrous engines, which make plenty of power and torque, often run wide lobe separation angles to moderate cylinder pressures and temperatures. Realize what the engine is going in, however, as you may not be able to use the wildest cam out there. The lobe separation angle is a comprise of what the engine needs depending on the compression, combustion chamber, rpm, engine size, head volume, and many, many other variables. How To Properly Replace Ignition Coils, Chevy 350 Ignition Coil Location And Everything About Them, Heres What Causes Your Car to Bog Down When Accelerating. I believe you have got the idea of what you were seeking. Another related thought to consider when selecting a cam is inches of vacuum for your engine application when deciding upon a Lobe Center. 110 LSA: Oppositely, the cylinder pressure is comparatively lower at 110 LSA than at 106 LSA. Before getting to the cam profiles, we had to make sure we had a reasonable test engine. It made 472.4 lb-ft at peak, a 21.5lb-ft disparity from the 101 cam. Walter Noah is a process engineer who has a knack for resolving even the toughest technical issue. Unfortunately, good street manners are often at odds with performance, as wilder cam timing usually decreases idle and (low-speed) driveability. 01 Choosing the right lobe separation angle for your LS cam shouldn't cause anxiety. The wider lobe separation angle closes the intake valve later and reduces cylinder pressure, so that is where it's detonation resistance comes from. Post A 112-114 degree lobe center will have a better idle and produce more vacuum with less overlap. (You can find an instructional video of how to do just that on our Clay Smith Cams YouTube Channel;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57gfBu8uc6k&t=1s ). The piston and cylinder damage possibility is pretty low at 110 LSA. That notion is completely false. Moreover, a user from the Chevelle forum said. And better gas mileage. I forgot to add that poor vacuum is not much of a concern to me because I have no power accessories. changing just the LSA on my cam wouldnt make a bit of difference on vacuum operated items E ericnova72 More for Less Racer Joined Jan 13, 2007 22,026 Posts " - Voltaire. Boom, you get the lobe separation angle of that engine. Despite no changes in lift or duration, this cam sounded much more aggressive than the other two with wider LSAs. Around 70 percent of muscle-car performance cams fall into this range. If you shift at 7500-7800 add 4-6 degrees to both intake and exhaust and spread the lobe separation to 108-110. Selecting a camshaft for a given engines purpose usually involves a compromise between low- or high-end power options, and the lobe separation angle (LSA) is one of those factors where engine builders have to make a choice between those priorities. A wider lobe separation angle can often provide more power, but it can also lead to more wear on the engine. Pretty much standard for an RV type cam. I probably would have gone with 3.55 gears had I knows better.. 106 LSA: So, if I talk about the powerband at 106 LSA, the powerband is narrow. The final, 108-degree cam stepped power up even further, with peaks of 572 hp at 6,300 rpm and 544 lb-ft at 5,200 rpm. 110 LSA: On the contrary, 110LSA has a higher piston-to-valve clearance rate. not exactly true, Ive seen custom grinds that are on 108 lca, smooth idle, high vacuum an even able to run efi, usually on an off the shelf cam it is true. Lobe separation angles, he continues, are influenced by the camshaft grind. hydraboost is the same as a vacuum brakebooster, only the booster is replaced by a unit that does the same but under hydraulic pressure. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. dont sound like a verry street friendly motor butany thoughts? = Tight Below 104 Deg. Say you have a cam ground on a 115 and the other on a 110. 05 To ensure our stroker combo had sufficient airflow, we installed a set of Chevrolet Performance CNC-ported LS3 heads from Gandrud Chevrolet. Overlap is the amount of time that both valves are open in the same cylinder. ~These are just some of the drawbacks weas guys who like to go mach 10 with our hair on fire and these little motors screaming at rpms that make other guys cryhave to deal with.~. In a blower motor when the valve timing events are where they need to be the lobe sep will usually wind up in the 114-115 range on most Combos. The intake lobe centerline is measured in crankshaft degrees. by bug1914 Tue May 13, 2003 2:56 am, Post 110 LSA) and Crane's #341191 (238/248, .563"/.587", 114 LSA), display considerably different characteristics. That is no accident. "When the low-pressure wave in the exhaust reflects into the intake, the pressure delta actually helps pull air and fuel into the cylinder. This has been my long time understanding! by randy331 Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:00 pm, Post The result sounded wonderful, but it didnt rev as enthusiastically and it made 30 less horsepower than normal, says Lawrence. It provides a spark plug with the high voltage needed for combustion. 110 LSA: On the contrary, it is pretty unpleasant to inform you that the efficient compression rate decreases at 110 LSA. LSA CAM TEST-108 vs 112 vs 120 Richard Holdener 239K subscribers 168K views 2 years ago WESTECH PERFORMANCE GROUP FULL RESULTS-CHANGE ONLY LSA-LS CAM TEST. I am pretty sure, right now, you find yourself in the middle of the rising debate of 106 vs 110 lobe separation angle. Another difference between the two involves the power curve. by lazaris Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:18 pm, Post But, after comparing these two LSA based on a few mechanical aspects, such as maximum Torque, RPM, powerband, oil consumption, and many more, you will find the 106 LSA with better performance output. Lobe Separation or Lobe Centers is another way of expressing the Valve Overlap, which was the term formerly used by cam manufacturers before industry standard verbiage changed. Aeromotive; 913.647.7300; AeromotiveInc.com, AFR Heads; 661.257.8124; AirFlowResearch.com, Federal Mogul/Felpro; 248.354.7700; FederalMogul.com, Mahle; 248.347.9700; Mahle-Aftermarket.com, Scat Enterprises; 310.370.5501 ScatEnterprises.com, SuperFlow Dynamometers and Flow Benches; 515.254.1654; SuperFlow.com. is ben crawford michael crawford's son, chelsie ravenell and jacquelyn stewart, st luke's east emergency room wait time,

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